Identity Woman

Independent Advocate for the Rights and Dignity of our Digital Selves

Annoucements of Events

You know your conference is to cheap when…

· · 1 Comment

You know your conference is to cheap when other conferences offer you $200 discounts to register EARLY and yours only costs $200.

In case you missed it the Internet Identity Workshop has an announcement up and registration is open. Phil and I implore you to PLEASE register early so we know how many of you are coming.
We subtly softened our language about “user-centric identity” to take into account that there is some concern that this might be going to far in one direction and it may be that the parameters of the relationship in the middle is where the focus needs to be.

The Internet Identity Workshop focuses on what has been called user-centric identity. Basically asking the question how can people manage their own identity across the range of websites, services, companies and organizations that they belong to, purchase from and participate with. IIW is a working meeting for a range of groups focused on the technical, social and legal issues arising with the emergence identity, relationship and social layer of the web.

I think this year Identity as a service will make a strong appearance. Companies like Symplified are doing interesting things that have application in the enterprise market first but could have usefulness on the consumer side maybe sooner then we think.
More from the announcement:
As a community we have been exploring these kinds of questions:

  • How are social networking sites and social media tools applying user-centric identity? (this is the question I am interested in knowing more about. How is it working now that you can actually implement some of this stuff – it is not just big ideas any more)
  • What are the open standards to make it work? (identity and semantic)
  • What are technical implementations of those standards?
  • How do different standards and technical implementations interoperate?
  • What are the new social norms and legal constructs needed to make it work?
  • What tools are needed to make it usably secure for end-users?
  • What are the businesses cases / models that drive all this?

Our event is highly participatory anyone who wants to present can do so. The agenda is made all together on Tuesday morning. We do this unconference style – for those who have not yet been you can read what community leaders have said about the effectiveness of the format.
If you are NEW please come to Monday’s introductory session starting at 1pm. If you have attended before it is worth coming to get the latest updates on where things are.
Yes it is CHEAP – $200 if you are an independant, and $350 if you come from a corporateion. You get all your meals paid for (healthy food – some say the best ever conference food).
If you want to come and you can’t afford it – talk to us – we want you there if you want to be there.
If you are an Identity blogger and have been to IIW PLEASE blog about this one coming up. We also have a blog sidebar logo you an put up.
border=”0″ hspace=”3″ vspace=”3″ align=”left” title=”IIW2008 Registration banner”alt=”IIW2008 Registration banner” />

Interopping times 2 at RSA

· · Leave a Comment

OSIS Interoperability Demonstrations
TUESDAY April 8th 11:00 AM – 6:00 PM
Moscone South, Mezzanine Level Purple Room 220
To be able to see this you need to get an expo pass. See below on how to get one.

OSIS User centric identity network interoperability between identity providers, card selectors, browsers and websites demonstrates how users can ‘click-in’ to sites via self-issued and managed information cards, or i-cards. Open ID, Higgins Identity Framework, Microsoft CardSpace, SAML, WSTrust, Kerberos and X.509 components interoperate within an identity layer from open-source parts.

I am really excited about this 3rd Interop – for one it is ALL Day not just an evening – I also heard they are going to have comfy chairs. To be able to see this you need to get an expo pass – one way to get it is to attend the other Interop Event.
This one is also exciting – put on by the Concordia project at RSA on Monday April 7th from 9am-12:30pm.

Registration is free of charge, and you must register for the workshop in order to attend the Concordia event, whether you’re an interop demo participant or not! Register for the workshop on the RSA registration site. Use the registration code 148CON. This will also give you a free expo pass that you can use to attend the tradeshow portion of the Conference Tuesday through Friday.

I will be attending both and I encourage everyone interested in the topic and tracking the evolving state of the technology to do so.

Data Sharing Workshop and 2nd Summit

· · Leave a Comment

About a week ago I posted about the choice landscape we have for these events. No one seemed to have an opinion so we went with both and are having one event leaning more towards ‘the technical’ and another leaning more towards vendors with products and potential buyers.
The Data Sharing Workshop, April 18 – 19 at the SFSU, Downtown Campus.
The Data Sharing Summit, May 15, at the Computer History Museum. (immediately following the Internet Identity Workshop)
We received such a positive response to the Data Sharing Summit in September, 2007 and, given the ongoing emergence of different data sharing initiatives, such as dataportability.org, Social Networking Portability, the 1.0 release of the Higgins Framework, DiSO, MT activity feeds, etc. we decided that it was a good time to hold another summit.
Our purpose is to provide gathering spaces in which all parties can work together on the challenge of data sharing. We create the agenda the day it happens. It is about getting things done and figuring out the tough problems – there is no committee deciding who does or does not get to ‘present’ it is about breaking up and really diving in figuring out the solutions and building the consensus to get adoption.
Data Sharing Workshop Details
April 18-19, Friday-Saturday, SFSU Downtown Campus
We selected April 18th and 19th because it seemed like an ideal time to host this event, given that it falls in between RSA and Web 2.0 Expo. People who are the Bay Area from around the world will be able to participate in figuring out how to get data sharing to happen. Although the event will focus on technical aspects, it will also include social, legal and business issues related to data sharing. The space can accommodate up to 200 attendees.
This event is being co-presented by SFSU Institue for the Next Generation Internet

We decided to hold the event on Friday and Saturday to accommodate the needs of different attendees. If you are at a company that is focused on this work and you prefer not to work on weekends, you can attend Friday. Or if you are interested in the subject but are unable to attend due to work commitments, you can come on Saturday. Those who are highly dedicated can come to both days.
Data Sharing Summit 2 Details
May 15, Thursday, Computer History Museum, Mountain View, CA
This event will immediately follow the Sixth Internet Identity Workshop at the Computer History Museum in Mountain View CA. There will be a combined focus on technical work and on opportunities for vendors with solutions in this space to share and connect with potential adopters of Data Sharing tools.
You may want to arrive on the afternoon of May 14th to participate in Internet Identity Workshop activities relevant to DSS (such as the OSIS Interop). May 15th will be a long intensive day, ending around 5 or 6, in time for dinner. Because it is important to close the event together as a group, please make plans to be there all day. The space can hold up to 400 people.
If you are super into the topic of Data Sharing we highly recommend that you come to the [http://iiw.idcommons.net Internet Identity Workshop] that precedes it.
The Problems, Offerings and Solutions that we put forward at the start of the first DSS is quite informative. Proposed topics and Outcomes are also lay the ground work for these next two events.
If you are interested in sponsoring please contact Laurie Rae at sponsorship@datasharingsummit.com
Feel free to contact me if you have questions.

Data Sharing Summit 2 – questions to figure out

· · Leave a Comment

So I am working hard to pull the details together for the 2nd Data Sharing Summit. This is not an easy task given it is a risk to make commitments to venues and vendors – to make it possible to host the event.
This is an option that would give more time to organize and dove tail nicely with related work in the identity community
OPTION 4 – have it begin Wednesday and continue Thursday May 14-15 immediately following the Internet Identity Workshop
There is also the possibility of having something near Web 2.0 Expo the weekend before seems to make more sense to people are not completely wiped out from a weekend of partying and conferencing.
One of the reasons for this is that I know people come from out of town to attend Web 2.0 expo and some for several weeks so that there will be people in town who would not otherwise come ‘just for this event’.
We currently have 2 venue/time/space options
1) in Downtown SF but only can have at maximum 120 people and only 3 breakout rooms beyond the main space – this would be for Friday and Saturday the 18th and 19th. We would be restricted tot use from 8-5 pm.
2) in Mountainview at the Computer History Museum – a beautiful space that we would have to pay for but could hold up to 500 people and would only be for Saturday the 19th. It could go from 8 am to 8 pm+ even. We could feed folks breakfast lunch and dinner along with a barista.
Either way we will be charging money for the event about $100 – and working on raising sponsorship money. I believe events should be funded both by the people who do attend AND by sponsors. This helps create balance and by paying money to come people make a commitment to ‘be there’ for the event and the organize can plan for their attendance.
I am trying to get a read on what will work best.
I am still asking Lucy to put in OpenID for commenting on my blog and she still can’t get it to work even in dialoguing with Pam about it. So if you want to chime in you need to email me kaliya (at) mac (dot) com.

The third option people have put forward it so have it on an ‘large’ tech companies campus and I have said that doesn’t work cause the topic is neutral – so this is not an option in my mind.

Online Community Unconference East

· · 1 Comment

On February 21 I will be facilitating the Online Community Unconference East.
I think the topic of user-centric identity will definitely come up. Please feel free to join in this gathering for online community practitioners – managers, developers, business people, tool providers, investors – to discuss experience and strategies in the development and growth of online communities, and the use of social media. Those involved in online community development (and social software in general) share many common challenges: community strategy, community management, ROI, tool selection, marketing, business models, and legal issues (just to name a few). The best source of information on all of these challenges is other knowledgeable practitioners.
The Unconference leverages the unique format of Open Space. If you are unfamiliar with the concept of “Open Space”, the idea is to tap in to the collective knowledge of the attendees by having the Unconference attendees actually drive the agenda and session topics. Open Space is the perfect antidote to the prevailing “talking heads” conference model, because the sessions are truly in depth conversations. You will meet the people you need to talk to, and you will have the conversations you need to have!
Organizations attending include: allfacebook.com, Alliance to Save Energy, AOL, Business Week Digital, Changing The Present, Consumers Union, Cyworld, EchoDitto, Family Justice, Inc, Gartner, Grandparents.com, IBM, Mercy Corps, Patricia Seybold Group, Showtime Networks Inc, Socialtext, Texas Instruments, TV Guide Online. Zagat.com
The event is Febuary 21st and is going to be held at the Newman Conference Center. The price for the Unconference is $195, but I’ve included a discount code for $25 off below.
To register, please go to:
http://ocueast.eventbrite.com/
Enter discount code “kaliyaspeeps” for $25 off

Leading a Peer-to-Peer Session at RSA

· · Leave a Comment

I was informed this weekend that my proposal for a peer-to-peer session at RSA was accepted.
User-Centric Identity and the Enterprise: Promise, Pitfalls and REALITY

This session will surface the issues holding back enterprise adoption of user-centric ID (OpenID, information cards, etc.). Is it a lack of perceived value? Is it the perceived immaturity of the technology? Is it the cost justification? Is it the perceived competition with federation or other enterprise projects already underway? What changes can be made to make them more consumable by the enterprise?
This will take place on Friday April 11 from 10:05 AM – 10:55 AM
The number of the session is: P2P-402A
If you are in the community and coming to RSA please sign up for this P2P session – should be fun.
There are some other user-centric related sessions happening at RSA:
Breaking the Identity Meta System.
Pamela Dingle
Wednesday, April 09 08:00 AM – RED ROOM 302
The user-centric identity community has been working together to prove identity metasystem interoperability for some time, but what happens when the intention is not to interoperate, but to defeat? This session will concentrate on research into abuse and error cases that component owners must be able to recover from gracefully in order to be robust and secure metasystem participants.
How Might OpenID Apply to an Enterprise?
by Yvonne Wilson and Rafat Alvi from SUN on
Tuesday, April 08 05:40 PM – RED ROOM 302
This session will explore applicability of OpenID to various types of enterprise activities. Considerations will be discussed such as security, trust, privacy, data needs and the extent to which OpenID might or might not meet the needs of certain situations.

After The Crash Tomorrow

· · 1 Comment

Apparently the markets are going to crash tomorrow.

It should make for an interesting time at O’Reilly’s next conference Money:Tech – Where Web 2.0 meets Wall Street.
I have also been reading this week Fooled By Randomness. I very much enjoyed The Black Swan and would recommend both books.
The Crash is sort of depressing to think about – but so is the conventional money system that got us to this place in the first place. This weekend Raines shared this video about the Story of Stuff. Makes you think hard about the overall ecology of the system we are all living in.
Knowing that the economy was not doing so well I have been working with Chris Lindstrom on a conference that considers Money and value exchange in our economies.
It builds on a conference that Chris produced in 2004 about Local Currency (there are details about the topics covered in their Conference Report).
It will be an unconference about money. But not ‘regular money’ instead about these topics:

We are going to have a special focus on digital tools and systems for mutual credit creation, value measurement and wealth acknowledgment.
Because it is about money – but not just ‘regular’ money – we are calling it the unMoney Convergence. (we haven’t even got our logo up yet but I thought I would announce it given the forthcoming events of tomorrow) It will be in Seattleon April 14-16 following the Green Festival.
The unMoney unConference would have been a silly name.

Two good Conferences Jan 26th

· · Leave a Comment

There are two good conferences happening in the Bay Area on January 26th.
Technology in Wartime Conference is being put on by Computer Professional for Social Responsibility at Stanford.
The goal of this non-partisan conference will be to consider the ethical implications of wartime technologies and how these technologies are likely to affect civilization in years to come. Ultimately we want to engage a pressing question of our time: What should socially-responsible computer professionals do in a time of high tech warfare?
The Toll Roads? The Legal and Political Debate over Net Neutrality by the The University of San Francisco Intellectual Property Law Bulletin
Net Neutrality refers to free access to the Internet without discrimination based upon how often a user accesses the Internet or how much broadband capacity they utilize. Advocates for Net Neutrality believe that users are entitled to unlimited access in order to preserve current freedoms as well as to prevent broadband providers from abusing their power to block applications they do not favor or to discriminate between content providers. Critics of Net Neutrality and associated legislative proposals believe that Net Neutrality rules would reduce incentives to upgrade networks and launch next generation network services and, in turn, inhibit the most efficient access to the broadband network.
Should Internet Service Providers continue to drive the same “neutral” course, giving all search requests and other uses of the Net equal treatment? Absent legislation, will these ISP’s create Internet “toll roads,” giving preference to certain types of information? It is these types of questions that are at the heart of the debate on Net Neutrality.

Monday isn't just for 'newbies'

· · Leave a Comment

Just to clarify – monday at IIW is “not just for newbies”. All are welcome to the introductory track – I am sure you will learn something about the projects in the community and have a chance to ask questions about those one pagers that are all online.
At 4PM we are all together – the whole community – everyone to get IIW rolling. We have some good thought provoking activities planned. Please be there and join us for dinner.
If you are in an existing working group and have been to IIW before and you want to get some work done while folks are listening to the ‘laws of identity and such’ you are welcome to just let us know you want to have a meeting or add yourself to the wiki.

Giddy about IIW & Monday is Free

· · Leave a Comment

I am Giddy with excitement about IIW. Really – I have been bouncing off the walls all day. Almost* all my ‘identity’ friends are coming together and some new friends are showing up to meet you all. New people I don’t know will be there and adding to the mix.
We are experimenting with a new way to do monday with our introductory track being lead and choreographed by Phil. Each of the working groups/ major projects will have one-pagers for everyone to get a clear picture of the different activities. (BTW you still have time to get your one pagers to me).
Monday’s Introductory Track is going to be Free for folks who want to ‘check it out’ to come by. If they want to stay for dinner they are welcome if they chip in. If they want to stay for the conference they can register for it.
Joseph has written a great post about ‘why’ IIW has been really valuable to him and Plaxo.
Sean Ammirati has a great post just posted on Read/Write Web highlights why user-centric identity is important and how it fits into some of the themes discussed on RWW.
I hope we do get ‘slammed’ because it would be great to have more people who really want to engage. As a producer I get really worried about this because we ordered food for 150 people. So I will take a deep breath and hope it all works out.
So…The MC ‘position’ for the Untalent Show is open. If you would be interested in doing this let me know (Eve Maler who has been the MC before is not going to be at this IIW). Prepare your talents’ it could be anything – really. We are a friendly bunch….You can also do hybrid creations – we often have a few verses from a popular song – reauthored to reflect the community’s unique perspective on things.
IIW is a Community event and there is basically “no staff” (There are some students who are there to help ‘extra’ but that is not staff.)
This year my goal is to actually have enough ‘space’ to attend 50% of sessions (I only really attended one last time). So we are going to have a volunteer sign up opportunity so many people can do a few small things to make our event go well. So look for this if you would like to help. ALSO each person taking responsibility and doing the little things like putting your lunch plate in the trash helps make our space nice.
Oh and this IIW we are going to do compostables. So all of our plates, knives, forks, clear cups for juice will go to compost. (The coffee cups are brought by Rich and as far as I know are not compostable)
If you want to BRING YOUR OWN COFFEE MUG you could be trash free for IIW.
I can’t wait – it is going to be great!
* Bob Blakley is not going to be at IIW – some important other thing he has to do for us all.

Internet Identity Workshop

· · Leave a Comment

IIW2007 Registration banner
With She’s Geeky over my attention is now turning to the two conferences that I am facilitating in November Foresight Vision Weekend and the New York Association of Independent Schools Technology Manager Conference.
In December I am producing the Internet Identity Workshop.
We had a call last week about design of IIW that went well. We will do another call early next week and have a relatively complete outline by November 3.
.

Scenario Planning Sunday Afternoon for Monday Panel

· · Leave a Comment

So for all of you coming to the scenario planning ‘exercise’ on Sunday for the DIDW panel on the Future of Internet Scale Identity we will be meeting in the Lobby of Tower 1 of the SF Hilton at 2pm.
With the numbers we have currently signed up I think this will do just fine as a meeting spot. If we move from this location go there and look on the middle desk in that lobby and we will leave a note about where we are. You can also text me at 415 425 1136 if that doesn’t work.

I have my final planning meeting with John Kelly tomorrow. I am hoping he can join me in facilitating the exercise either way we are good to go. We have about two dozen “event’s” that could happen in the future. Those who come will get to create more events. From there we will look at how the relate, and cluster. There is a bit more to it and then we will present what we discern on Monday. It should be a lot of fun.
Feel free to come even if you have not signed up or pinged me via e-mail.

In the Desert for a Week: Back after Labo(u)r Day.

· · Leave a Comment

I have been fairly quite here for a few weeks. Just toddling along at summer. I have spent the last few weeks getting ready for Burning Man. I made a sculpture about 3’x4′ that looks like this.

I am leaving within hours. It should be great – I will be at 9:00 and Jungle in Sustainabiliaville.

Catalytic Catalyst OSIS demo tonight!

· · Leave a Comment

This is my third Burton Group Catalyst. It is hard to believe it has been two years since I first came to this event and that the first one I went to was before the first IIW in the Fall of 2005. Today when Gerry Gebel in his talk Can Frameworks Bring It All Together he highlighted The Internet Identity Workshop as a hub of activity in this area and even that it was an unconference!. OSIS one of the working groups of Identity Commons also was highlighted because of its activity and the interoperability demo tonight.
I have lots to say about what I have heard today on Net Nutrality, Power Tools, The Questions, The Community. I will be posting more on that later.

Technorati Tags:

Arrington and Cantor live event comentary.

· · Leave a Comment

Marc always has a lot to say…Arrington..well he is opinionated and his own unique style of ‘moderating panels’ listening to these two audio back channel while listening to presentations…now that is interesting. They are planning to do this at Next Web in Amsterdam June 1. I hope they livecast this and share broadly.
I missed Marc’s presence at IIW. It would have been fun to have his reality check world view present. I have to say there was a tone of real work that got done at the event. It always amazes me the progress of the community at each event. Next time is going to be AMAZING. I hope that it gets on folks calendars.. IIW #5 will be Dec 3-5 and IIW #6 will be May 12-15 both at the Computer History Museum in Mountain View California. Also Phil and I are open to hosting Identity Open Spaces in conjunction with other conferences.

Prepare your Un-tallent

· · Leave a Comment

David Kerns just posted some great parody lyrics to the “Rainbow Connection” here. Eve Maler is again going to be the MC of the un-talent show on Tuesday evening at the Monte Carlo (formerly La Rioja, formerly formerly the Monte Carlo). Both original songs, poems, talent along with parody Lyrics to accompany Karaoke are welcome (and you can enlist the identity choir to sing with you).
You can ping her via e-mail or just talk to her onsite on Monday and Tuesday at IIW if you want to get up on stage.

Identity Web 2.0 Expo Talk

· · 2 Comments

Giving my talk at Web 2.0 was an interesting for a few reasons.
Firstly I tried to really step out and talk about what is next for identity and where the problem issues are looking forward assuming people knew about the past. I How to think about what we do in terms of people and community? How do we things with Identity for people in groups not just about ‘them’ in this user-centric but isolated. To articulate this I wrote what I hope is the heart of a great article that gets at where we are now with the identity layer, where we could go. This is the first two pages of the PDF. (yes doc it is a PDF and I will work on an HTML version).
Secondly, the audience was not who I expected. I thought this was the regular ‘tech crowd’ I meet often. Instead it was people coming from big companies trying to figure out this web 2.0 stuff and people buidling things who travelled a long way to be here. Not really who I typically think of in the O’Reilly scene. So for all of you who wanted ‘the download’ about all the identity ‘bits’ the basics of all that on the third and forth pages of this PDF.
I learned from this experience and I have had two opportunities to really be on stage at O’Reilly events in the past two months and I learned quite a bit from both of them.
Looking forward I am going to be working on some core content to speak with ‘completely’ normal and somewhat technically literate people about identity. I am also going to be practicing these talks more regularly.
I also have thoughts about what is next in terms of the problems that the identity community needs to address and can address moving forward. This is where the opportunity lies if you are an enterpriser, venture person or coder. These opportunities and issues are deeper then code and money stepping into the heart of what it means to be human in the networked world. What we do now on the web in relationship to this REALLY MATTERS.

Technorati Tags: ,

INVITATION: Internet Identity Workshop & IOS

· · Leave a Comment

Here is the invitation to the IIW that I will be sending out via e-mail over the next week. Please pass it along to others who might be interested in attending.

Internet Identity Workshop (IIW) May 14-16, 2007
Computer History Museum, Mountainview CA.
In Europe there is a similar event that I am facilitating as well.
Identity Open Space April 26-27 in Brussels.
The Interenet Identity Workshop is about moving user-centric identity ideas and technologies forward. Come to this event to learn more, participate in the community and shape the future of the web.

What is User-Centric Identity?
User-centric identity starts with the individual, and his or her needs. It is about working relationships and services between individuals and retailers, employers, membership bodies, and organizations of any kind. It is not about a centralized solution, or anybody’s silo. As such it solves different problems than the familiar ones of providing authentication and authorization services within a single organization, or federation between different organizations.
What is going on in the field?
OpenID is emerging as a protocol for SSO across the web.

  • It has major adoptions from sites like AOL, Digg, FaceBook, and
  • open source platforms like MediaWiki, WordPress, Drupal, Joomla using it,
  • startups are forming around this emerging field like NetMesh, Sxip, and JanRain,
  • and reputation services are emerging like Opinity and Jyte.

Legal and Social issues about norms and uses of identity continue to surface.

  • How can I share my information and know it will not be misused?
  • How can we innovate better End User License Agreements?
  • How do young people, men, women and diverse groups understand and represent identity differently online?
  • How do online and offline identity relate?
  • How does ‘official identity‘ and ‘web constructed identities’ relate?
  • What is the role of anonymity and pseudonimity and how are they explicitly supported in this ecology?

What about Mobile Devices and Identity?
Vendor Relationship Management as an potential market segment is emerging
Microsoft Cardspace has been released on to Vista and XP desktops and Symantec has a user-centric Identity management product for the desktop.
There are several Open Source efforts to weave tools together – like Higgins, OSIS, Bandit.
Liberty protcols continue to be deoployed in enterprise and on the web.
Who is going to be there?
User-centric identity is an extremely active and growing conversation involving many converging development efforts — by open source communities, by vendors large and small, and by customers of all sizes. Internet Identity Workshops are where Mozilla, Symantec Microsoft, IBM, Novell, Liberty Alliance, WS*, Verisign, Red Hat, SixApart, Kintera, Sxip, Cordance, NetMesh, JanRain and many other projects and companies meet to work toward common goals and real solutions. They are joined by customers of all sizes as well.
You won’t find a higher ratio anywhere of real productivity to idle chat and marketing BS that are typical to many conferences. They are informal and purpose-driven. In every IIW so far, a high degree of progress has been made, within and between separate development efforts.
The workshops are organized by a working group within Identity Commons, and are run on Open Space practices and principles*. There are no formal presentations, no keynotes, no panels. Instead, topics are vetted and chosen by participants when the workshop convenes, and open meetings are organized and scheduled for the day that follows.
Still wondering if it will be good or not? Read what folks said about the May 2006 conference.

Cost:
We are committed to keeping this conference open and accessible. If you want to come we want you there. If cost is an issue please contact us and we can discuss how to make it work.
* Students – $50
* Independents – $175
* Corporate – $300
The fees are used to cover the cost of the venue, organization, snacks and lunch both days. We encourage you to pre-register since we will limit attendance at the event to 200 people. The IIW workshop in December was strongly attended and we expect strong interest in this one as well.
If you would like to sponsor the event please contact us.
If you would like to speak at the event sign up to come…anyone can.
_______________________________
Related to all of this is the Identity Management Focus Group of the International Telecommunications Union – here is the wiki and their mailing lists. The April meeting is the 23-25th in Geneva and May 16-18 is concurrent with IIW for one day and then continues for 2 more. They meeting following that is in July in Japan.